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Matth69000

Alternative plans to Stage 3

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As some of you already know from Skyscraperpage forum, I'm a strong opposer to Stage 3. Not only it doesn't make sense for me to expand the Confederation line passed the Greenbelt but such an expansion will, for me, raise a lot of issues rather are they technical, operational or demographic. 
First Point :  Demographic Issues
Expanding the Confederation line passed the Greenbelt means expanding the network into very low density suburbs. This means very high demand on rush hours and very low demand on the rest of the day. This configuration is not what the Confederation Line is designed for. The Confederation Line is a high density light metro system designed to carry a continious load of passenger at very high frequencies or less (at least every 7mins). An expansion such as the one planned for Stage 3 would not be very profitable for the city as the load of passenger outside of rush hours would be very low compared to the size of the stations built throughout the line. A high pendular migration such as the one we have in Ottawa would be handled much more properly by a Commuter Rail.
Second Point : Technical issues
Stage 2 is seeing the creation of two branches, one going to Moodie and the other going to Baseline. Such a design posses a lot of technical and operational problems as any major disruption on one of the two branches will cause problems on the main trunk and vice versa, any problem on the main trunk will cause major delays on the two branches. Such a design revolves on very tight coordination between the two branches, and many networks around the world experience problems with that type of configuration [Y configuration] (Line 13 in Paris, District Line in London, many lines of the New-York Subway etc...). An expansion passed the Greenbelt would mean more ridership espacially on rush hours, more stress on the two branches and more probabilties of delays and service disruption. 
Thrid Point : Creation of Suburb centric system 
An expansion passed the Greenbelt would send a very bad message to anybody leaving in the higher density Ottawa area. Such long expansions of lines would put transit money focus primarily on the suburbs and would send a terrible message to anybody leaving in the inner greenbelt area as no money would be put to deal with the transit challenges of the Inner Greenbelt. The Inner Greenbelt suffers already a lack of high frequency bus lines, and good transit solutions and Stage 3 would not change anything for that matter. The city by creating Stage 3 is basicaly saying ''Our interests are in the Suburbs, that's where the demographic that matters is (i.e Government workers) and you guys can keep using those unreliable buses while our cherished suburbers are using our brand new high tech trains''. 

All those challenges need to be addressed before going any further with any expansion plan passed the Greenbelt. Wich is the main reason for this Topic.

Edited by Matth69000
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On my free time I decided to try to make my own ''Stage 3'' wich means trying to make Suburban transit more efficient while trying to avoid all the problems listed in my topic introduction post. I came up with the following plan: 


The creation of 3 suburban commuter rail lines, and one short high density line running from Parliament to Billings Bridge. The commuter rail lines would be created by bying the existing CN lines running through the city. Signals would be upgraded and the central trunk between Bells Corners and Via Rail Station would be double tracked to allow consistent frequencies. These lines would be the new backbone for Suburban transit as most bus lines in the suburbs would be reoriented toward a Commuter Rail station nearby. Frequencies on these lines would come as high as 15 minutes during rush hour to as low as 2 hour during the day when demand is pretty low. Bus routes would be synchronized with train departures and arrivals to allow fast and efficient transfers. For exemple a bus would arrive 10min before a train departure and would depart 10min after a train arrival. A selected number of bus routes would still connect to the Confederation Line at Moodie and Baseline during day, night and weekends.
My plan also includes the creation of a high density line between Parliament and Billings Bridge. This line would be created by rerouting 80% of the funds that would've been used to finance Stage 3, the other 20% would be used to upgrade and create the commuter rail lines. This ''Central Line'' would be built in the idea of expanding it passed Billings Bridge towards Sandlewood Park. This line would also be major as anyone from Barrhaven, Stittsville or Kanata wishing to go downtown would transfer on that line at Billings Bridge. Finally this line would be a relief line for the confederation line as it would reduce the need, for CBD workers, to take Line 1 to Hurdman and transfer on a bus to go South. Also passengers using Commuter Rails wouldn't be forced to go all the way to the Ottawa Rail Station and transfer on Line 1 as the Central Line would create a sooner link going downtown. 

Valley Line : Kanata/Stittsville 
Lengh : 52km, 3 branches
Stations: Stittsville, Blackstone, Glen Cairn, Bells Corners, Carp, South March, Kanata North, Greenbank, Woodroffe, Merivale, Mooneys Bay/Walkley, Billings Bridge and Ottawa Rail Station
Rail Stock : Double deck rail coaches + Diesel-Electric Locomotive
Frequency :
Stittsville Branch -> 3 Departures per hour during rush hours, 1 departure per hour during flat hours, Service ends at 9PM, half hourly service on weekends.
Carp Branch -> 2 Departures per hour during rush hours, a selected number of departures during flat hours, Service ends at 6PM, limited service on weekends.
Kanata North Branch -> 2 Departures per hour during rush hours, 1 departure per hour during flat hours, service ends at 9PM, no serive on weekends


River Line : Barrhaven/Richmond
Lengh: 29km
Stations: Richmond, Jockvale, Greenbank Halt, Fallowfield, MacFarlane, Hunt Club Halt, Mooneys Bay/Walkley, Billings Bridge, Ottawa Rail Station
Rail Stock : Double deck rail coaches + Diesel-Electric Locomotive
Frequency: 
From Richmond -> 1 departure per hour during rush hours, no departures during the day, no service on weekends
From Barrhaven -> 2 departures per hour + 1 (coming from Richmond), 1 departure per hour during flat hours, service ends at 9PM, limited service on weekends

Russel Line : Vars/Limoges/Carlsbad Springs
Lengh: 34km
Stations: Limoges, Vars, Carlsbad Halt, Ottawa Rail Station
Rail Stock : Single deck rail coaches + Diesel-Electric Locomotive
Frequency : Rush hour only service, 2 departures per hour, service ends at 7PM, no service on weekends.

Central Line : Bank Street
Lengh : 4,5km 
Stations: Billings Bridge, Sunnyside, Lansdown TD Place, The Glebe, Terminal Station, Gladstone, Somerset, Parliament
Rail Stock : Citadis Spirit
Frequency: Every 4mins during rush hours, 7mins or less during flat hours, service ends at 1AM during week days, and 2AM Fridays and Saturdays.

I made an interactive map if you wish to see more about it, and also you can make your own 🙂 
https://www.scribblemaps.com/create/#id=cz2MB7S24l

Stage 3 (Suburbs).png

Stage 3 (Close Map).png

Edited by Matth69000
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i like the Central Line idea but would it make sense to run it out to hook with the Trillium line at Walkley and go out to the airport? That way there would be a single line all the way to Parliament station. You could still transfer at South Keys to the line going to Bayview if say you were a Carleton student flying in to go to school etc.  Just a thought. 

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I drew this diagram a couple of years ago (before I learned how to make use of proper mapping tools..)

PDtR2cD.png

Essentially this line would run parallel (or share?) the Trillium Line corridor South of Walkley and eventually cross over using a grade-separated structure to replace the Trillium Line on the airport spur.

I drew another (incomplete) one showing the general network as well as how this yellow line could be continued past the downtown to basically be used as another line down the Montreal Rd corridor. 

SbKFK4O.png

Anyway, I have more thoughts about this topic but I just wanted to share these two images. I'll be back when I have more time!

Edited by occheetos
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11 hours ago, Rick Mayson Durrett said:

i like the Central Line idea but would it make sense to run it out to hook with the Trillium line at Walkley and go out to the airport? That way there would be a single line all the way to Parliament station. You could still transfer at South Keys to the line going to Bayview if say you were a Carleton student flying in to go to school etc.  Just a thought. 

I don't think that would be a good idea since this would make the Trillium Line pretty much useless going north passed Greenboro, since the ''Central Line'' has a direct connection to downtown. Only Carleton Students would use the line. 

7 hours ago, occheetos said:

I drew this diagram a couple of years ago (before I learned how to make use of proper mapping tools..)

PDtR2cD.png

Essentially this line would run parallel (or share?) the Trillium Line corridor South of Walkley and eventually cross over using a grade-separated structure to replace the Trillium Line on the airport spur.

I drew another (incomplete) one showing the general network as well as how this yellow line could be continued past the downtown to basically be used as another line down the Montreal Rd corridor. 

SbKFK4O.png

Anyway, I have more thoughts about this topic but I just wanted to share these two images. I'll be back when I have more time!

Well my friend we have the exact same idea (concerning the Montreal corridor), indeed I was also planning on making that line run down Montreal Road, but I tried to keep cost in mind (the line would be 100% underground = $$$$$). 
Also as I said connecting the line with the Trillium line would make the later obsolete, since our ''Central Line'' would be directly connected to the CBD. Anybody travelling north passed Greenboro would choose the Central Line over the Trillium Line (unless you're a Carleton Student). My plan is to expend it towards Sandlewood park and Heron Gate, a pretty dense area with no real efficient bus service. 

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The Yellow Line is up there in all my transit dream scenarios. I would make a few changes to the routing:

1. Where the Yellow Line runs parallel to the Trillium, I would convert the Transitway corridor as part of this new Line. The S/E Transitway would therefore run from Hurdman to Walkley from here on out. 

2. I would make it turn south after the Montfort Hospital to serve La Cité, currently the only major post-secondary institution not included in any rail plan  (trades campus in Orleans notwithstanding). 

3. The Yellow Line would terminate at Blair, serving a major employment hub and a Line 1 station better suited for high transfer volumes. Alternatively, the line could split at Montfort, with one terminus at Montréal and one at Blair. 

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Yes, just simply yes.  

The nuances of this can be worked out (even yellow vs green line duplicity)  but simply yes. Do it.  The LRT just feeding the Red Line (line 1/confederation/whatever) does not scale well nor is reliable/fault tolerant.

This type of system, combined with reduced (meaning onerous) regulations for building new TOD housing units and walking communities around stations, would increase the quality of life, lower the housing costs, and make Ottawa a place people and business move to.

Commuter rail does not have to be a huge massive cost (original trillium as an example and many of the Go lines)   Tunnels, well, that is different and a huge investment.

Some concepts this help with.

Creating alternate paths in case of failure.  Think of London, to get to any tube station not at the dead end spur of a line, there are usually 4 or 5 ways to get somewhere.  It would be nice for Ottawa to have simply a second way to get downtown or to Tremblay.

Cross connections.  Like Clapham Junction in London, many different trains go a little out of their way there so people may connect to trains that are going to different directions. And this connection is done outside the city center.  Trains from many London central stations go via Clapham just for this interconnect purpose.

Fault Tolerance.  When the central train communications center finally (or again?) gets hacked by the (insert bad guy here), then it doesn't bring the entire system down.

FEWER CONNECTIONS from the airport to where people want to go.  Sorry, 3 trains to get downtown (to where offices and hotels are) from the airport is a total  non-starter.  Its a terrible plan and people will just take uber.  Or taking a train to Gatineau, 4 or 5 trains eventually?  Seems like the taxis and uber are behind not using the POW bridge to the Gat BRT.

I could go on, but these discussions are needed.  Especially if there is a change that this type of system can LOWER the debt burden........

 

10 hours ago, Matth69000 said:

I don't think that would be a good idea since this would make the Trillium Line pretty much useless going north passed Greenboro, since the ''Central Line'' has a direct connection to downtown. Only Carleton Students would use the line. 

Not unless the Trillium goes to Gatineau over the POW and meets or takes over the BRT in Gat. 

Edited by Herlsone
speling werent no good

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I would say this yellow line is needed more than any suburban line.  Bank Street, Lowertown, Vanier would be a great addition to the system and serve high density areas.

 

otrain-map.png

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10 hours ago, Matth69000 said:

I don't think that would be a good idea since this would make the Trillium Line pretty much useless going north passed Greenboro, since the ''Central Line'' has a direct connection to downtown. Only Carleton Students would use the line. 

Well my friend we have the exact same idea (concerning the Montreal corridor), indeed I was also planning on making that line run down Montreal Road, but I tried to keep cost in mind (the line would be 100% underground = $$$$$). 
Also as I said connecting the line with the Trillium line would make the later obsolete, since our ''Central Line'' would be directly connected to the CBD. Anybody travelling north passed Greenboro would choose the Central Line over the Trillium Line (unless you're a Carleton Student). My plan is to expend it towards Sandlewood park and Heron Gate, a pretty dense area with no real efficient bus service. 

Although the ridership certainly isn't there today to justify the expense of a tunneled line under Bank Street, in the future if/when the central line is built I don't think it would make the Trillium Line entirely obsolete.

(Ideally) The Trillium line would still be the main link to Gatineau for anyone from the south, like you mention Carleton will still be a big factor, if the new hospital is built that will also be not, and Carling/Gladstone will be the site of some fairly high density developments.

Yes, a central line would replace the Trillium Line's use for getting to the CBD but that's also why it won't be built until it's absolutely necessary. Getting people into the CBD will always be the priority and if there ridership gets to a point where feeding everyone from the south to either Hurdman or Bayview becomes too much, then we shouldn't be too worried about what happens to the Trillium line when we develop a solution to the problem since it will probably be just fine on its own.

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8 minutes ago, occheetos said:

Although the ridership certainly isn't there today to justify the expense of a tunneled line under Bank Street, in the future if/when the central line is built I don't think it would make the Trillium Line entirely obsolete.

The ENTIRE areas of Bank Street, Lowertown, Vanier, etc... is in dire need a reason for developers to rehabilitate these areas or build new buildings, developments.   This line would be well worth the investment.

The Fed Government can only talk about being green and funding transport.. now is the time to hit them up for a billion or two.

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To your point two: one of their operational procedures is to send two trains at once in each direction, which should actually minimize delays (even more than other scenarios) with the 3 track, 2 platform station configuration at Lincoln Fields.

Yes, I can see benefits with certain corridors for converting to transit like the CN ROW to Kanata.

I also find the "Central Line" concept quite relevant for what's good for transit in this city, more likely better connected with Gatineau than Montréal Road. I believe the Montréal Road corridor would be better connected with the existing Confederation Line.

Edited by canophone

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While I do agree with fact that a bank street/Montreal subway is needed and that commuter rail is better suited for many of the areas that people in this thread have listed, I do think the confederation line should extend to terry fox, however I will admit anything further west than that is a bad idea. 

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4 hours ago, occheetos said:

Although the ridership certainly isn't there today to justify the expense of a tunneled line under Bank Street, in the future if/when the central line is built I don't think it would make the Trillium Line entirely obsolete.

We should not mistake current ridership and area density. People don't use transit down Bank Street because it's simply too long and unreliable to make it convenient for anybody going downtown to the South End. As of today it's faster from Billing Bridge, to take the South East transitway and transfer on Line 1 to reach the CBD. 

However a fast and reliable transit system like a subway would make things much easier. Furthermore Bank Street has already the density (ppl/km2) required to have a Subway line running down it's path. Ridership down this corridor would explode almost certainly, including the fact that it would grab many riders from the South East Transitway and the Trillium Line.

Edited by Matth69000

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The Bank Street alignment is probably one of the most "logical" north-south alignment as it doesn't overlap too much with existing alignment while serving an actual north-south axis.

Generally speaking, agreed "effective" radius for mass-transit is around 600m from station. In this context, I created a map of where potential stations would be versus existing / future Trillium line stations, and there is not that much overlap.

image.thumb.png.f9bde1fd52be965cfb255c4a0b0e8622.png

The only real overlap between the two lines is Walkley if built as separate stations. Of course it would be a REALLY expensive endeavour, but it is one of the most logical alignment for densification.

I do not really believe it would kill the need for Trillium as they do not really overlap, but might remove any real necessity to double-track all of Trillium in a 30-50 years timeframe. 

I also agree with @Herlsone that there is a better case for this alignment than the Barrhaven LRT or other alignments south of Carling Ave. Of course those who live in Far-Haven will suggest otherwise, but ridership ain't there, nor density.

@Matth69000 which software do you use? Illustrator? Amazing work by the way.

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